Phil Ore on Chaos to Creation Confessions: Imagine if you could hack serendipity and beat the system…

So today on the chaos to creation confessions, we’re going to speak to Phil.

Phil is the co founder of a B Corp, called 25Eight, which includes another couple of companies which are Me Three and Marketing Entourage. They’re focused on innovation, creativity and entrepreneurship, and they’re based in Australia. Phil also co founded a social enterprise called Entrepreneurs & Co, to build a collaborative community. The I mean, this is like so much fun to help entrepreneur printers get international success. And not only that, in you know, in the meantime, and in the gaps. Here’s a pitch mentor for Startup Victoria is a global ambassador for Inspiring Rare Birds, a judge, an accomplished event speaker, and an advisor for startups. And he’s got six kids. So, Phil, you’ve been around a bit as we both and is one of my bestest and longest friends ever. So welcome to the chaos to creation confessions. How long ago did we meet actually? Do you remember?

Phil 1:14 Well, let’s not put a year to it. But we were 16. And we had left school. And we were at Matthew Bolton college, doing our certificate in telecommunications and electronics engineering, which wasn’t last year. Let’s put it that way. No, it wasn’t last year. It was a what it was a little while ago. Yeah, it’s pretty impressive in it. Yeah. No, it’s 35 years. Unbelievable.

Debs 1:45 So, okay, chaos to creation confessions. You know, what we’re here to talk about. We’re here to talk about things that have gone well, things that have gone wrong, and explain basically your process. So what’s your most recent creation? What we’re going to talk about today?

Phil 2:03 Okay, well, I thought it’d be good to actually talk about a playbook that has been inspired and actually supported by yourself, which is all about hacking, serendipity. So it’s come to the point now, we’re actually creating a playbook together to help people build their network, their knowledge and their confidence. So it aligns really well with what I do as my day job as co CEO of 25Eight because we focus on helping time poor business leaders adopt innovative practices. And one of the key challenges is always about how to strategically grow your network, and in turn your business. So it sort of came from one of the models that we use about mapping an ecosystem. And I realized that actually, we had a structure and approach to how to maximize this and make sure that the right opportunities arise. So you know, it, we started to realize it’s actually not all about luck, you can actually identify players and the and look at this ecosystem, and look how to connect meaningful relationships. So it’s a, it’s grown from sort of an idea into something real thanks to the support of you. And you know, this, it’s getting to the point now we’re getting to the pointy end, and we’re looking to get it out there.

Debs 3:23 I’ll go back a sec, tell me what lots of people throw around the word ecosystem. And it’s like, you know, it’s it’s one of those words that people use without necessarily knowing what it means. What do you mean by ecosystem, when you talk about a business ecosystem, a marketing ecosystem?

Phil 3:40 Well, for me, like a lot of people, if you go and do marketing, for example, everybody says, right, you need to work out who your target customers are, and you need to sell to those customers. And that’s all that matters. And it is true, you need to have a human centered approach to actually help to sell your products and services. But if you think about an ecosystem, from a biological point of view, it’s interacting organisms, and it’s like this physical environment, and it’s how everybody connects, and, you know, like a good ecosystem, even in the way of some things get eaten by others, or whatever. But everything feeds off of itself. And what I realized was that, you know, like, for an ecosystem, it’s not just about, like the target customer, it’s about everybody who’s involved in that business ecosystem. So who are the stakeholders that are involved in that, you know, if you say, say you work in a certain industry, who the peak bodies, who are the key players, where’s the physical environment, seeing started to actually look at it about thinking about everyone who, in principle, not, it’s not about selling to them, but can actually help promote your business if they understand your purpose and your passion? and believe in you and understand your story and what you mean to do. So it’s very much about stakeholders, across the whole of this ecosystem, and how can you build meaningful relationships with them?

Debs 5:05 Okay, so the book’s called Hacking Serendipity, I’m just trying to remember a hacking serendipity. And it’s a playbook for business leaders. So how long have you we’ve been working on it now. I can’t remember.

Phil 5:17 I guess it came through something that happened 13 years ago. So I was actually, suddenly I was going through a divorce, I hadn’t moved long into Melbourne, and literally knew a handful of people. And none of them work close friends sort of personal level, I realized to go make a drastic change in my life. So I was on a plane to Singapore or work for Nokia. At the time, I watched a movie called The Yes Man, which is based on a book by Danny Wallace. But this is the actual movie with Jim Carrey. And it’s basically about a guy who has to say, he decides that he’s going to take a covenant and say yes to everything. And, and from this, I finished the movie. And I turned to Nicole, who worked with me at the time and said, right, that’s how I’m going to live my life. And she’s going to What do you mean? I got, I’m just going to be a yes man, I’ve got to get out. I need to meet people. And that’s what I did. It literally transformed my life, I met so many people, I actually met through that I met my business partner, I met my now wife, I’ve got six kids only had two at the time. And it was actually the best thing that ever happened in my life. And then when I moved into work, and I started my own business in 2014, I actually thought I can apply this to my business life. I’ve always had this Yes, man principle people give opportunities, you have no idea whether you should go or not. So I just thought, I’ll just say yes. And I look back on it now seven years later, and go, Oh, my gosh, I look at who these people are met this along the way and started to reverse engineer, or these things weren’t going well. This is not based on Look, there was actually an approach and you think about it, and it was more about what did I want to learn about what was I passionate about? You know, like, so there was a certain themes within this. But when we got to it, you know, you start to think about it and then thinking well, we were talking about networking, we’ve got a framework, which we did with a lady called Lorraine Tighe, which is about networking, some of its structured, and some of its serendipitous, and thinking where like… …imagine if you could hack serendipity, and actually try and beat the system and prove that it’s about action plus luck, or sometimes luck plus action, but a bit like winning a lottery ticket, you don’t want to win the lottery, you can’t win it unless you bought a ticket in the first place. So it always involves something for you to do. So it’s built over there. And then like, it started to become more real. And I’ve grown my own network, you know, even on LinkedIn to 1000s and 1000s of people by simply saying yes, and even when you think oh my gosh, is this a good idea? Generally it is.

Debs 8:04 I love it. I love it. So and then we started together working. So you talk to me about this idea. And I said, Oh my god, there’s a there’s got to be a book in that. And then when when did we start on the creation of the book bit to remember,

Phil 8:18 first of all, I didn’t believe you. And I crapped myself about the thought of writing a book. And I remember you saying you have to start with saying I am a writer, even though you haven’t written anything. But yeah, it was actually it was last year, through the depths of COVID lockdowns in Melbourne, we had a good 100 plus days straight or being in full lockdown. And but we were talking about this about how you can build build a book and it came back to this thing about you talk about Minimum Valuable Assets and thinking about what it was. So by going through the chaos to creation process (TheAssetPath.com), and through that process, started to actually work out what my strengths were, and what I could actually build on to actually build my own confidence and actually use to actually build my network with a bit more structure around it. So by you saying that it was actually thinking about, okay, what do we need to do to get to the point where you can actually write a book, and, and what’s needed along that. So I think going through the chaos to creation process, and, you know, as you say, to me, you know, it’s more about what you’re not going to do, as well as what you are going to do. And setting that goal. That’s something you can achieve. And I think for me, I never thought I would even be able to achieve this. But I’ve always liked the idea. But with a greatest respect for lots of people who’ve written a book, I didn’t want to write a book for the sake of it, I needed to write a book that was actually truly gonna help with starting with that first thing we did, which was about your Ikigai. And actually, you know, what, what is in the center view, and, you know, what do you what do you love, and that came out with helping people. So again, it’s sort of aligned With that is I feel happy when I feel like I’m helping people.

Debs 10:05 I Yeah, well, you’re one of the most wonderful person peoples I’ve ever known in my whole life. So helpful to me when I was at college will those contracts and begins ago. So it definitely obviously, one of the things that makes me chuckle is one of the first conversations we had when you said that you were the CEO, the chief energy officer. And I think that that comes out superbly from you that that ability of building your own energy and other people’s energy, but I’m going to change the subject a tiny bit, eventually chaos, to creation. And our process that we went through the bit in the middle that nobody likes doing is the constraints. So I forced us to do some constraints. What constraints did you manage? What constraints Did you impose? What constraints do you like? What constraints Didn’t you like? So let’s talk about constraints that bit in the middle?

Phil 11:01 Yeah, well, it’s been in a good way, a bit of a therapy session, because I sort of explained by my, my start the introduction is, I do a lot of things, I have a family have lots of friends spread all over the world now. And I, I actually enjoy that I look back at my career at Nokia, I spent 17 years there. And I had like five, sort of key jobs there. And four of them were didn’t exist as jobs. My first job was like an account management job. That’s actually the character. So as an engineer, helping we’d like technical sales. And as much as I love working for the company, brilliant culture at the time in the 90s, I was so bored, because it was like sort of doing the same thing all the time. So I realized that actually repetitive stuff I really struggle with, which is why I sort of accidentally created my own chaotic world, because I thrive on coming up with new ideas and lots of things happening and having big to do lists. But then I actually beat myself up because I’ve never finished my list at the end of the day. And even my business partner, Sam, she always says, like, why do you build such a big list because it’s impossible to achieve. So I think that we turned to constraints. The first one was actually myself. So actually believing one that there was a playbook in me that it could create. And to that I can actually build this structure. So like, it’s like embracing chaos. So I’ve always been thinking, I’ve got to get rid of chaos out of my life. But actually, I’ve just got to embrace it. This is me, I live in a chaotic, crazy world. Even with my job, I’m the front, I’m answering the phone, I’m out in the regions, I’m talking to people, but it’s because I love it. So I actually became anxious in some ways that my life was out of control. So I think once you’ve done that, and then the second bit is the constraint of time, generally, there’s only so many hours in a day, we’re gonna we’re really proud of our businesses, a B Corp, 25 Eight, Entrepreneurs & Co has been something I’ve been doing with my friend, Mark Peel, since 2017, which actually was another integral part of why this whole idea of hacking serendipity was there, because we were in a co working space where there was no community. And we said, well, we need to create one. So we built this so that people would have monthly means talk about challenges, entrepreneurship. So I think that it’s accepting that challenge was there. But I think the final bit of the constraints is that lack of self worth, and not many people sort of see that when you’re an outgoing, energetic person, but actually trying to measure progress and success when you’ve got 20 lists, so you can’t finish. can’t finish and finish at the end of the day, but now it’s like changing it to like thinking about what’s the three things you want to do before the end of the day, and sort of building it from that. So it’s, I still feel like it’s an ongoing process to improve my acceptance of how I measure success, and manage those constraints.

Debs 14:21 Okay, so I’m just going to summarize this. So the first one was you believing you could do it? The second one was you managing and constraining time and then the third one was, again, bringing it back to you. So again, a lot of you in here and I think this is really, really, I think it’s really important because I know my biggest chaos creation is me. I create chaos wherever I go. And if I don’t constrain the chaos, I feel a bit anxious and you can’t control chaos. You’re absolutely right because I think chaos is a feature of life, not a bug of life. Which people think. So? I want to talk a bit more I think this, I think you’re on a really important thing here, which is the South bit. So I said you had to say you were a writer, you are a writer, I am a writer. What else have you done for yourself? Because I think we want to a really important thing here that we have to constrain our own imposter syndrome, our own desire to say yes, and please people. So talk to me a bit more about that first, before we go on.

Debs 15:32 Well, you know, we’re sort of, I’ve always been this Yes, man. And actually, I’m glad in a lot of ways that I’ve done that, because like, I look at the people I’ve met by going to events where sometimes I haven’t actually felt like it’s even in the person’s life, people would know that, I couldn’t say no. So that they’d say, are where you’ve got to come out and stuff. And I sort of brought that into work. But one thing that we’ve talked about, in chaos to creation is the, the phrase ruthless time blocking is one is actually go, Well, I have to allocate time to these tasks. And when that time has gone, that window has gone. So like, I think that I’m trying to build a structure around this is really, really key. So you know, like, you can’t, you can’t just assume that you’re going to get everything done and, and then beat yourself up when you haven’t completed it. So one thing I’ve done is build a lot more structure, my my calendar, now it’s all in two blocks, and even pre everyone coming in the morning, I set tasks that are very much around me that I know the phone’s not gonna ring and how to build that. So I think that building a structure helps limit assumptions, in terms of what you can achieve. So you know, even now we use software program, it’s in our business, where it actually maps out all the projects we’ve got and how much time you need. And it sort of goes into red when you’ve already hit the limit. And the reality is probably going to be read a lot, but it’s how I respond to that. So I used to panic about what people would think about me if I couldn’t achieve my tasks or whether you’ve got back to it. So I think it’s more now about building it in a way we were being more structured, knowing what to do, I use a personal Trello board of tasks outside of a, you know, we use Basecamp for all our project stuff. So that’s got tested, but I still got like my own personal to do list each day, which might even have some personal stuff on there. So I can actually magic things that manage things a bit better. But it is it is tricky to do. Because you actually, you know, even if I had one job with one task, I’d still create 10 because I’d get a bit bored. And you’ve got to sort of accept that as a person.

Debs 18:00 I love that I love that: get a bit bored, so I create a few more tasks. Oh, my God, I know exactly how that feels. I do that all the time, I think in why, you know, I could just add this on. And based on that based on. So yeah, I completely understand that. Okay. And so far, because we still haven’t quite finished the book yet. So we’re still in this creation phase, we’re still in the chaos phase, what’s been, would you say your biggest failure so far in the creation?

Phil 18:30 Um, I would say the biggest one is setting my expectation too high. I think the other one was actually accepting the time it takes to come up with a good idea. So when we started the book, we were actually talking about what type of book it was going to be. And we sort of settled on this idea of a map. So you know, like everybody on their entrepreneurial journey actually starts in a different place. It’s a bit like when we build programs as 25, eight to help people adopt innovative practices by teaching not telling, but it’s not like everyone starts on the start line. It’s not like the Olympics, and everybody’s an Olympic sprinter. You know, they’ve got some people are just learning to walk, someone’s Usain Bolt, you know, and somebody’s, like, an amateur runner, and but we’re expecting them all to run at the same pace. And I think that was the same for me is that, you know, you’ve actually got to accept where, where you where you are, you know, and that sort of pace and what you’re going to do, and I decided I would be Usain Bolt and realized, actually, I’m just learning to walk. So I think that was a one thing. So I can speak cell phone, because there there isn’t the time in that. The other thing as well, I think going through this, this process with you is, when we were looking at what book it was, we then realized that actually what are people going to read? And it’s not a 40,000 word book. It’s just a playbook. You know, it needs to be something where people can have really useful tips that they could say, Oh my God, I’ve gotten networking face to face event tomorrow. What can I do? You know, we whether you’re an extrovert or an introvert, people still have different issues, you know, but if an extrovert wouldn’t have any problems going up and talking, but would they talk about themselves? Or would they ask a question about? So tell me your story. So this two years for matters. So it’s actually the playbook. So whether you don’t get it, you’re not scared of being people? Are you going to be just talking about who you are, rather than actually understanding what the challenges are that person and looking how you can help them? So I think that it’s now getting the point with the book where you start to go, Okay, we’ve got a playbook, it’s going to be shorter, it’s going to have tips, it’s something that actually you know, that the other thing we talked about was Minimum Valuable Assets. So we’re testing it like all good people. So we’ve actually been interviewing people about their own hacking serendipity journey, and do they use this and what tips they are. And that’s been Mind blown, because we’ve actually there’s there is a community of like minded souls, who actually does this all the time, but haven’t really thought about it this way. And they’re giving us tips that were, you know, with this support a building into the podcast and building into the playbook as well. So it’s not just about your eye about what we thing, it’s about getting other people to share their story.

Debs 21:32 Okay, so I’ve really liked that idea. And you’ve brought it up a couple of times. I know what we think is the is the formula for hacking serendipity. What How would you class so far from the interviews we’ve done and the people we’ve spoken to? What would you say so far is our formula where where are we at? So someone was listening? And they were saying, How do I how do I hack serendipity? What would you say the formula is?

Phil 21:56 I think the most common thing that comes across is about purpose. Okay? And purpose is probably an overused word. But what it what we mean by it is, if you want anyone to one listen to you, and and secondly, I actually believe in you to actually help you on that journey. You’ve got to explain what what you’re about. Okay, so we could talk about what your why or your purpose or whatever, but you know, like we talk about, what’s your Northstar? So what are you trying to achieve? Or what you’re trying to do? We know if anyone knocks on door and says, Do you want to buy this, you generally most people are like scared at that. So you need to be able to tell a story. get people to buy into your purpose and what your the impact that you want to have on the world is and then whether it’s a customer or someone you meet an event. The second bit of this was the people have been really good at hacking serendipity is when they’ve actually basically got ambassadors or believers in this stuff, who are actually doing the networking for them. So one of the guys who I interviewed last week Finbar O’Hanlon actually said, like, he’s not that keen on going out and being the networker because of just who he is, as a human being. I mean, he’s a rock star, and he can play on the stage. But he’s got people out there who believe in Him and His purpose and what he’s doing, and they’re out talking to people with him. And it’s this collective thing. So I think, having this approach of your purpose, building this ecosystem of like minded souls, understanding who’s out there, and actually connecting with them, so not just your end goal, people is really key. And the I think, probably, once you’ve worked out that ecosystem, it a lot that’s coming is always leave a conversation with you giving more than you’ve taken. So don’t go in and say what I need from you, is actually about what can I do for you? How can I help you? And if it comes away, that you’ve not got anything in principle at that stage, stick to your promise, so I’ll connect you or I know someone or whatever, and then see what that does. Because I think with hacking serendipity, it’s not an immediate transaction. There’s people I’ve met 510 years ago, who keep popping up and going, Hey, Phil, I saw this would you like to connect and there’s like these repeat hackers who help and it might be all that one off transaction where somebody just happens to be right place, right time, and they go, Oh, I thought of you. I just want you to help you with this. So don’t expect immediate response. It’s not like going into a shop or buying a Mars bar.

Debs 24:44 Oh, wouldn’t it be so easy if it was? Okay, so I just got to sort of summarize where we’re at and what the process was. So you had this you have been living this hacking serendipity life and when we connected about a year ago, you I explained your Yes man journey. And then I explained my not for now, girl journey. And we kind of like, we’re sides of the same coin, I think. And then we had an idea for a book, and then it kind of like got changed. And we tested it. And we thought about it more, and we started interviewing people. So where are we now? What remains on burn in this creation? What are we doing? Where are we at?

Phil 25:33 I think that, you know, as I say, this would have never happened had I not started on the chaos to creation journey with you anyway, because it’s actually by sorting out my drawers, so to speak with everything that’s in them. And, you know, I’ve, I’ve had things on my, my desk about what to do and what not to do. And, you know, like, it’s been a really like cleansing process. Now, in terms of what’s left, it’s now just about testing that and using, you know, the storytelling, so using other people’s hacking serendipity stories to build on what we’ve got as a methodology, and then building in what we’re in this playbook, he’s like, we’ve got these tips and tricks that we’ve got, but we’re also using for others. So in principle, as much as it is a book, it could be a never ending book. Because if we look at the way that we interact with people now at the moment, it’s very digital, because of the way the world is. And it will go back to being more hybrid, I don’t think it will go back to being fully networking because people have got used to digital engagement. Now, with you know, like that. There’s the phrase zoom, everybody knows what zoom is, I don’t think they did, you know, 18 months ago, and like, my mom knows what a zoom call is. Not that she’s been on one herself, but she knows what it is. So I think that it’s now to complete this, you know, we talked about this minimum valuable asset, we were building our own podcast for that, which actually then tests that and builds a community, we know that people are out there. And then from that, it then allows us to actually create what I hope will be like the first version of a playbook, because if we get it, right, it’s something that can constantly up to date with these tips and tricks on how to hack serendipity as we get good ones to come along. So I mean, really, the call to action is to get anybody who feels like they’ve got some great stories, but you know, what’s those? One thing or that moment, and we’ve got some caucus from the podcast, which I don’t want to give them all away. But literally, by getting out there, and going door to door to meet people, there’s one guy who met a billionaire, basically, who happened to be in the right industry in a bagel shop in New York, just by accidentally sitting down by this guy. But it would have never happened. If they’re gone out and said, Well, I’m gonna go and try and sell this myself. So that this brilliant story is like that. And the more we can get, the more that we can share that more people believe that we can’t sit around and wait for lightning to strike. You need to get out there and make it happen yourself. And that’s what we’re gonna do. Okay,

Debs 28:12 absolutely. And I think I think you kind of like, bring in one of them. For me, one of the main points of the book that I want us to break out, which is that it’s not about sitting around waiting for the universe to drop something in your lap. It’s about getting out there taking action. Making, making serendipity happen. It’s like not waiting for serendipity to happen. Phil 28:33 Yeah, you Nothing will happen. It’s like in life, we know I’m getting on a bit. And I realize I can’t wait anymore. So even even with doing this, you know, like, I have a busy life, but it’s something I really believe in. It’s it’s not to buy a private island or yacht or anything. It’s just like, right, we recognize that myself, you. Lots of people have got these really great hacks that can actually help someone else start their journey. I remember leaving Nokia and I went and ended up being an MD of a brand consultancy. And I left Nokia on a high really career wise, I thought I knew lots of people and everything else. And then you realize, actually, you don’t know anyone outside of that industry. And if you want to connect with others, it was literally like starting again, I went from my wall, I’m good to Oh My Goodness me. And that was when we started entrepreneurs and COVID build a network in a new city. And lots of people start their entrepreneurial journey, and think they’re gonna smash it. And it’s actually it is a combination of what you know, and who you know, but it’s more importantly about who believes in you, and who’s just going to help you when you need it most. And actually not just got to know that person. It’s like how well they’re really cool, or they’re really great, and I’d love to help them and it’s the shares on LinkedIn. It’s the people who just go Hey, have you met them or whatever. They’re the one To make the difference, not really. But we’ve got to get them to believe in what we do.

Debs 30:05 Love it. I love it. Okay, I’m going to change tack a little bit now. So I’ve got two questions that I always tend to ask, what’s this one? First? What the creation that you’re absolutely the most proud of? Well,

Phil 30:20 I would say when it’s done is actually creating this book with you. Because it’s actually helped me build my own confidence and step out of my comfort zone. Even saying that I’m a writer, has took some courage. It’s been quite entertaining with people, then I’m a writer. But yeah, I think it’s really good because you’ve got to get out there and do something. Plus, people say there’s always a book in someone’s head, well, we’re actually proving that there is a book in people and, and it’s a hopefully a book with impact. I mean, my happiest creation is my family and mazing wife and must now six kids and stuff, you know, but building a family that all love each other, really, that’s probably the one but on a per, you know, on on this level, this book is like a really great thing. And it’d be great to I know, you always say smell of a new book. So lovely. I’m looking forward to that myself really.

Debs 31:17 Smelling your own book, I mean that they smell even better than anyone else.

Phil 31:22 I’ve looked forward to that moment to actually be able to do that.

Debs 31:25 Brilliant. Okay, final question. So when was the last time you did something for the first time? Ah, okay. Well,

Phil 31:35 the joy of lockdown is that in I don’t have the I really felt like I’ve got to do something for me. So for my whole life, I’ve always wanted to be able to play the guitar. And I’ve just never done it. And what happened in a lockdown was I thought I’ve got to do I got to my birthday in April. I thought, right, I’ve got to change it. And actually, I went to a 50th of my wife’s cousin. And they had this almost looks like a band, but it was a karaoke band. And you could just sing anything with the one of the best nights ever best. It was out of lockdown in that short window. Brilliant. And I just thought, God, I wish I could play with them. I could sing. I’m not great. But I could sing anyway, everyone can sing. Doesn’t have to be in June. So that started so I started about mid May. And I’m working my way through. And like all proud guitar people, I’m really proud. So I’ve got like a little callus on my ends of my fingers. Because I actually practice every day. And that’s a bit like live, I’ve realized 1520 minutes in between me ends, like a five minute break and just playing one song and practice it. That’s how you learn. It’s like micro steps. It goes back to 25 Eight you know, we’re trying to do five minute videos, four minute videos, micro learning one video to one task. That’s fine learning guitar just one little bit at a time. And then you grow. Don’t expect to just learn in a whole day because it’s not possible, but I’m loving it so good for the soul.

Debs 33:10 Well, we can join the club because like I’ve didn’t say and then if you can see my guitar, there’s my guitar in the background, and guitars in the background. And I started this year as well, just after my birthday must have had music, midlife crises, or something both of us, because I’ve done the same and I’ve got the fingers as well. So I’m quite proud of mine.

Phil 33:33 They’re not for showboating, but when I’m on a call, it reminds me that I got to do it, you know if it sits anywhere else, and I can’t see it. So I’m sitting on calls and stuff. And I think you’re right, okay, I need to go. So literally like three minutes, play one song or just practice my chord changes because I’m that rubbish at the moment. And like, I’m that I am that bad. Like, just playing with a pig is like entertaining. I’m trying to learn how to play with a pig instead of just strum with your thumb. But anyway, it’s brilliant. So I recommend anybody. If you’ve got a game, if you haven’t done it, don’t wait. You know, like, because there’s never gonna be enough time. Even even in lockdown. There’s always stuff to do. So don’t wait for a quiet time to do it. Just have a crack. And even if you do a little bit of the time and it takes longer, it doesn’t matter. Does it?

Debs 34:22 Something that you love? Yeah, something that you love. Okay, talking about something I love, love you loads. It’s been such a delight to have you on the chaos to creation confessions, how can people get in touch with you?

Phil 34:35 Well, probably the easiest way is through LinkedIn as there are so many directions that can go into the day job is 25Eight.co. And we’re all about trying to help business leaders on that. And I’ve been dropping notes. So we’ll also have our Hacking Serendipity website. With that people can follow what we’re doing as well, which is super key, and hopefully a book out soon.

Debs 35:08 Okay, wonderful. Is there anything else you want to tell us that we haven’t asked you?

Phil 35:12 Now, look, I just want to say to those who are listening to this process on Chaos to Creation has been absolutely brilliant for me. Even stepping into it, I wasn’t really quite sure. But I believed in you, because I knew who you are. And you know, we, we sort of talk about it. But as much as you think you helped, you taught me how to revise when I was 16. Because I was so hopeless. I remember saying to my son, if you have to revise for an exam, feel how easy it would be. So we’ve got a lot to be said. But I think going through the process, some of the gems, looking, you know, the way that you’ve structured it with the business detox, truth charts, you know, your reasoning, it really freed up a lot of time in May, and also build that confidence in what I’m doing. So I thoroughly recommend it. I’m still going back and revisiting stuff as well all the time. Because I think, again, it’s something that you don’t do once, it’s just actually building those frameworks into your daily life. Debs So now, imagine we haven’t even got through the whole program yet. Phil Now, I know still plenty to do, but it’s been awesome. And I think as well, the way that you know, it is done in a structured and your acceptance of people running at different paces and stuff. But yeah, I think we’ve managed to keep it on track. And it’s been awesome. So yeah, great fun. So thank you for, you know, I’ve really, really enjoyed it. It’s really grateful.

Debs 36:37 Thanks for being so open and honest about the constraints being about our personal about who we are as well as was what we do. So thank you, Phil and speak to you soon. You’re welcome. So much. Bye.